Voor de geinteresseerde, heb ik hier een voor mij tot nadenken stemmende post geplakt.
Ik kon het oude topic waarin we 'gedrag' bespraken niet meer vinden, daarom een nieuwe.
De tijd ontbreekt helaas om het allemaal te vertalen.



As I see it horse training is a balance between command based training
and operant based training and my goal is to look for more operant ways
to train but still have the command skills built in I case I need them.
If our horsemanship tactile riding skills can have an adverse effect
with our communications then I see two answers and that is to improve
our ridding skills or take in consideration that this happens and look
at better ways to teach our horses to prepare them for the adverse
effect that the real world can brings to horsemanship. Of course doing
both would be the best answer and I work at that but I’m only going to
talk about the preparing the horse for the real world part of it.



First impressions are so powerful that I feel that this is the key when
building a relationship between the cue and the behavior. The clicker
training dog world tells us to get the final behavior before adding the
cue. With a dog if we free shape the behavior of turn to the right by
clicking and treating the dog every time he turns to the right. Soon he
will be always turning to the right and then we add the cue of “gee” to
the behavior. But with a horse we tend to start the behavior training
with the cue. We pick up the right rein and hold it till the horse turns
his head to the right, then release the reins so the horse
understands he got he behavior correct.



When the cue is given it does more than request a physical behavior. It
evokes a strong emotional association that was developed during
learning. The first experiences tend to set the mode for the rest of the
behavior. With the dog training the first experience with the turn to
the right behavior was fun and games. But with the horse training
because we use the cue to shape the behavior the first experience with
the turn to the right was work.

Because our language with horses is tactile pressure cues, most of us
horse trainers are going to use them during the learning stages. Imagine
using the dog model to train the horse to turn right. First free shape a
right turn and when you have got it perfectly trained then and only then
you then add the rein cue into the training. The right turn can be
trained this way but few horse trainers would do it this way. Barbara
Ray’s post talk about first teaching a turn with a target stick, then
add the voice cue before the tactile pressure cue is added. I think
this fits along this line of thinking and I plan on trying this out.

The question I ask myself is how can I get that happy mode that free
shaping brings in a safe way when dealing with a 1300+lbs horse. Because
first impressions set the mood for the behavior I feel it is important
to start the training by first training a happy classical conditioning
feeling to the cue and behavior. I think of this like the dating stage
of a human relationship. Set a happy mode for the early stages of
training and this gives a good positive first impression that will
hopefully carry out during the more formal stages of training.



Because I work with others I wanted a model to help people I’m teaching
with so they have a better way to understand that training is a process
and it takes time to go thought the steps. The model I use it based on
how a human romantic relationship is built. I even been working on a
story to set the mode so to speak. The basic overview is that with a
human relationship we go thought 3 stages; dating, committing and real
world.



The dating a behavior stage is where we set the mood for the training to
come. This is the fun stage of training as with clicker training it
can bring out the supper excited horses. This is the happy classical
conditioning stage of training. With humans you would controlling the
environment by having romantic candle lit dinners, walks along the beach
stuff like that. With our horses it is easy to pair food with the
events to get some of the happy association. The dating a behavior is
the fun stage and it is easy to get stuck in this stage. You have horse
that does wonderful things but only when they want and in the correct
environment. For me the first behavior I taught my horse over 10 years
ago as I leaned about clicker training was pushing a ball. It was a fun
party trick but real training didn’t work this way. It took me years to
start to understand the power of a little plastic box and some
understanding of the laws of learning before I understood that I could
use this more then just as an enhancement tool to some other training
approach.





Committing to the behavior: This is the stage where when we ask for the
behavior we need to get it. I don’t like the idea of negative
consequences for a failed behavior but this is the point in training
that it can be used. But and this is a big but, it is our job as the
trainer not to ask for a behavior of our horses that they are not ready
to do. I believe that if we do a good job in the dating stage and build
a good happy classical condition with the horse then the committing
process will go smoothly. Committing is nothing more then when I cue
the behavior I’m going to get it in a timely fashion.



Real world stuff happening but if we build a good classical conditioning
behavior in the dating stage and got the horse committing to the
behavior when the cue is given then we are better prepared for when real
world stuff hits the fan so to speak. Training a horse for the real
world is just continuing to add more to the behavior at a pace that the
horse can deal with.



An example of this was with a horse named Bandy in for training about a
year ago that one of the things was the horse would not stand still to
be mounted. For the dating stage to get some happy classical
conditioning I worked with this horse at liberty so she was free to
choose to stay with me or go away. using Alex’s on the mat training I
got her to stand still with me beside her. I phased out the mat and got
her standing still with me standing next to her. Lots of click and
treats during this part.



For the committing stage I started to use a mounting block to stand on
and added the reins so I could cue her to step forward or back as I
needed. Using the clicker and treat to mark where I wanted her to
stand. To up it a little more I did the horse mounting hooky pokey,
you know “put your right foot in pull your right foot out” clicking and
treating all about for standing still. Working on this to getting on
and off her while standing on the mounting block.


The horse owner wanted to be able to mount this horse from the ground so
for the real world training I would mount from the ground. First nice
and pretty with out much force to the horse. I’m 6’5” (1.95meters) tall
so easy me to mount her from the ground. Again I was clicking and
treating for standing still. The horse owner was much shorter and
stockier then me so ever time I mounted the horse I would slowly pretend
to be a shorter fat man making each time more difficult for the horse to
stand still. After about 15 or 20 times I was hanging on the saddle
horn and kicking the horse with my boot as I got on. she stood very
nicely for me.


So there it is, train the emotional associations first, then train the
behavior and lastly proof the behavior for the real world. That is my
thinking, thanks for reading.

Neil.

Piet
The opposite of positive reinforcement is no reinforcement, not correction

Eva Saegerman schreef op woensdag 14 november 2007, 9:52:


aap

Piet
The opposite of positive reinforcement is no reinforcement, not correction

Caatje schreef op woensdag 14 november 2007, 15:08:


Noi heb ik vast niet zo'n kleine maag, hoewel mijn ogen soms nog groter zijn, maar ik moet er toch niet aan denken het volume , desnoods fijngeprakt, van 3/4 pak hooi, op een dag te moeten opeten.
Volgens mij voert Peter ook al jaren pulp en ik denk niet dat er iets mis is met zijn paarden.

Nog even de link naar de info over pulp.
Je ziet dat de energie waarde net boven Lucerne ligt (Alfalfa) en ruimer boven hooi soorten.
Het houdt het midden tussen een "onderhoudsvoer" en een krachtvoer.
Bovendien is de glycemische waarde veel lager dan graan Dus geen grote pieken en dalen in de bloedsuikerspiegel en de energie komt net als in hooi langzaam vrij

the energy in beet pulp is primarily derived from both soluble and insoluble fiber-energy which is released relatively slowly after microbial fermentation in the cecum and large colon, as is the energy in other forage feeds such as hay

http://www.shady-acres.com/susan/beetpulp.shtml

Piet
The opposite of positive reinforcement is no reinforcement, not correction

lizzy schieke schreef op woensdag 14 november 2007, 15:19:


Je kunt toch een mailtje sturen met de vraag of je haar een mailtje mag sturen of dat ze dat brutaal vindt?
Alleee: communiceren! Ik denk dat ze het enorm leuk vindt, een mail te krijgen van een (Nederlandse)landgenoot die ook bezig is met blote voetjes paarden.

Piet
The opposite of positive reinforcement is no reinforcement, not correction

Anna van Rheeden schreef op donderdag 15 november 2007, 8:57:


Attentione!
Neuvo de Portugau
Naturau Bekapperinos
Muchos bene de piedos die cavallo
Guillomo De Ruinenos a stablos " Petitos Ollanda Blondes"
Por toutos Cavallos
Por Favor!

Piet
The opposite of positive reinforcement is no reinforcement, not correction

Caatje schreef op donderdag 15 november 2007, 10:09:


Peterrrrr! Ze doen het weer!!! Hellup!
Hij keek als iemand......
Ik heb ouwe Carlos, drie keer het leven gered met pulp. Dan had ie weer de flotskak en 2 dagen later weer prachtige mest en werd hij weer wat dikker.
Alle granen scheet ie uit als of hij ze nooit ingeslikt had. Zegt dus wel iets over de verteerbaarheid ook.
Als ik er vlak voor het voeren wat lucerne brokken doormengde stond ie helemaal z'n hoeven erbij op te vreten. Klein beetje lijnolie op een ouwe droge boterham. mjammie!
Vezels....De darmen vol... iets meer voedingswaarde dan hooi... wat wil je meer?

Piet
The opposite of positive reinforcement is no reinforcement, not correction

Caatje schreef op donderdag 15 november 2007, 10:50:


Nee, nee, dat zou te makkelijk zijn. Carlos had prachtige ouwe kiezen en tanden. Kon alles eten, beet nog stukken uit winterwortels en z'n hooi ging perfect naar binnen en werd kort gekauwd. (kun je zien aan de mest)
Dus het is niet omdat ie die haver niet kon kauwen.
Het verteerde gewoon niet.
Carlos kwam ook uit Engeland. Was een Welsh

Piet
The opposite of positive reinforcement is no reinforcement, not correction

patriesencarmen schreef op donderdag 15 november 2007, 12:23:


Waar blijft de boer met: een warme kantine,gezelligheid, een rijbak me verlichting, natuurlijk voer en voor de paarden een buitenleven he?.

Piet
The opposite of positive reinforcement is no reinforcement, not correction

Esther schreef op donderdag 15 november 2007, 19:06:


Verkeerd verstaan hoor, ze zijn er Niet tussen kerst en oud en nieuw, dan zijn ze dicht.

Piet
The opposite of positive reinforcement is no reinforcement, not correction

fien vanhoutteghem schreef op donderdag 15 november 2007, 17:19:


Normaal wind ik me vreselijk op als ik zulke verhalen lees, maar ik heb eerst tot 10 geteld en de woorden "jammer genoeg moeten missen" ook nog 10 keer herhaald, omdat ik niemand hier wil wegjagen.
Allereerst vind ik een paard van 22 niet oud, ze zijn toegerust om 50 te kunnen worden, dus wat is oud. Een dier afmaken omdat het bevangen is..... was het chronisch? Was het de zoveelste keer dat ze bevangen raakte? Wat heb je dan gedaan om dat te voorkomen? Wat is er aan gedaan om jou te helpen? Wat bedoel je met 'heeft toch meer goed dan kwaad gedaan"... dat ze in de wei stond? Of dat ze natuurlijk bekapt werd?
Bedoel je soms dat omdat er geen ijzer onder zit worden de bloedvaatjes onder het hoefbeen dichtgedrukt?
Als het paard een voet optilt is de druk weg, met een ijzer eronder is de druk nooit weg. maar je ziet, ik heb veel vragen.

Piet
The opposite of positive reinforcement is no reinforcement, not correction